20-year nomad Wandering Earl talks the future of travel post-pandemic from Bali, Indonesia | Episode 11 with Derek Baron

In 1999, at the age of 22, Derek Baron left home for a 3 month trip to Southeast Asia that has never come to an end. He’s been traveling the world for over 20 years, 7097 days of travel according to the counter on his travel blog, WanderingEarl.com. Derek has visited over 120 countries, and now runs his tour company, Wandering Earl Tours, to locations around the world. I first met Derek in Mexico in 2011, when he had already been traveling and working on cruise ships around the world for over a decade. In this interview, Derek was in Bali with his girlfriend and his rescue kitten, but has since moved on to Playa Del Carmen, Mexico to spend the next phase of the pandemic.

If you want to learn more about how to break free and move abroad, pick up my book: How To Move Abroad And Why It’s The Best Thing You’ll Do. 

episode highlights 

06:51 Derek talks about the Visa process in Spain and how that’s been due to COVID.

07:51 How a nomad like Derek ended up with his own rescue kitten.

10:31 Derek gets into detail about his 20 years of experience traveling through more than 130 countries.

13:51 How Derek worked on cruise ships for four years and how that helped him to sustain his life of travel long afterward.

18:52 We discuss the future of cruising in a post-pandemic world.

23:22 How Derek has made a success of his blog and tours.

29:10 The future of in-person group tours and how he has been able to survive and thrive despite COVID.

35:21 How Derek feels about his American identity being abroad for 20 years.

38:37 Wandering Earl’s next steps.

Links mentioned in this episodE

@wanderingearl on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook.

WanderingEarl.com

About Adventure Calls 

From her quarantine to theirs, world-traveler and author of How To Move Abroad And Why It’s The Best Thing You’ll Do, Jessica Drucker, calls up travel experts to find out what they envision for the future of travel in a post-pandemic world. You can find Jessica at www.jessicadrucker.com, and sign up for expat and radical change coaching here.

Full episode transcript

Jessica Drucker: All right. Hi, Derek, thank you so much for coming on today. Really appreciate it.

Derek Baron: No, my pleasure. It's gonna be great.

Jessica Drucker: And where are you talking to me from right now?

Derek Baron: So I'm in Bali, Bali, Indonesia at the moment.

Jessica Drucker: And more importantly, how are you feeling today?

Derek Baron: Oh, I'm feeling feeling great. Yeah. overall feeling great Overall. Yes.

Jessica Drucker: And how is it there with Coronavirus? I heard some different stories initially, and I haven't heard anything recently. But at first it seemed like Bali was immune to the Coronavirus or Indonesia was immune. And now there's quite a lot of cases or what's the story there right now?

Derek Baron: Yeah, Indonesia now is definitely not immune. But Bali still seems to be quite immune. I mean, there is about 700 cases I think so far, but there's about four and a half million people on the island. I do know some people that worked at the biggest government hospital as nurses and they said literally they've never had more than 13 people in there at a time for COVID and it's it has not been crowded at all. So I do believe The numbers. So at the problem is though, is starting to as things like the rest of the world start to open up. A few more people are breaking the rules and numbers are starting to increase in the last week or so. Oh, really? Yeah, a little bit.

Jessica Drucker: And is that foreigners coming into our people traveling to Bali right now?

Derek Baron: Nope. So there's no flights from Bali outside of Indonesia, there's only a couple of domestic flights per day. The idea is to promote domestic tourism. I don't think many people are coming still is I look at every now and then at the departure, you know, website for the airport. And there's about 15 flights per day scheduled domestic flights, and about two of them actually run. The rest get cancelled. Because nobody actually so just to the capital, Jakarta. So there's about two flights a day that go to Jakarta. And that's it.

Jessica Drucker: Wow. Okay. And so you, um, you don't actually live in Bali? Did you kind of get stuck in Bali? What's the story here?

Derek Baron: Yes. So I was actually I'm actually based in Spain. But I was here and yeah. And basically, my girlfriend was here, and she wasn't feeling so well. We thought she might add COVID. This is about three months ago. And she couldn't leave the island as a result, because he had fever and few things. And they were closing things and taking and checking people quite a bit. So I decided to fly over here from Spain, right to Spain was going into the lockdown. And I decided to come here instead. Obviously, I didn't think it would this this would unfold this way. But so now I've been here for Yeah, I don't know, about three and a half months.

Jessica Drucker: And how long so I you know, I followed really closely your whole Spanish visa process because that was really interesting to me. But how long did you actually live in Spain on that visa? before you move to Bali? Is it like the same time now that you've been in Bali that you were in? So

Derek Baron: I was I was in Spain from last September until March. Theoretically, on the visa but because of work in lifestyle? I did also, I took a trip to Ireland, I had to go to Morocco on point the US so I mean that we still traveled but basically since last September. I was in Spain. Yeah.

Jessica Drucker: And are you going to renew that piece in Spain? Or now do you live in?

Derek Baron: interesting because I'm waiting to see the rules because I actually saw you get the little kitten here. Yeah. That's going to be interesting, because I technically won't have spent the required amount of time in Spain to renew it. But there's talk that they're going to allow that, you know, allow a free extension if you were short by like a month that it's okay. But I need to wait and see how that works.

Jessica Drucker: That's crazy. It was actually on my list of things to ask you about your kid and so you brought up your kitten but how is your doing? Because now you live in Bali and you have a kitten so how's your kid? Yeah,

Derek Baron: somehow so rescued a kitten. Now when she was five days old, we found her crying in the jungle. People had abandoned her and full of bugs and worms and we took it to the vet and miraculously saved and now she's 11 months 11 weeks old and she's doing awesome. It's also part of the reason why I probably look exhausted is because she had vaccinations yesterday, passed out until four in the morning and ever since four in the morning. She's been running all over the bed and been nonstop full of energy. So a little haven't slept much, but she's doing awesome. Honestly, it's been pretty cool to see her grown and be super healthy now considering how we found it.

Jessica Drucker: Yeah, you have a little baby, basically.

Derek Baron: Yeah, I will admit, as silly as it might seem to say it's this is way more work than I ever imagined. It's much more like having a kid tonight than I would have ever thought. Yeah, it's pretty incredible.

Jessica Drucker: But now you put in all this time so is your kitten gonna become like a nomad like you?

Derek Baron: Promise I'm allergic to cats be

Jessica Drucker: too. Oh, that's so hard.

Derek Baron: So if I do cough during this, it's literally because of the cat. That's a tricky one. So my plan actually is once this all ends is to take her to the US and I have a few friends that are interested in taking care. So the idea would be to take it to a good home where I could also visit when I'm there. But I honestly would take her if I wasn't allergic but and just see where the adventure goes. But I it's very hard. I it's just very hard to do it.

Jessica Drucker: Yeah, I mean, I don't want to not like cats. But we I just I'm so allergic that I can just cuddle up to a cat so I totally understand. Have you heard of this guy called one? One man? One cat? Yeah, okay.

Derek Baron: Yeah.He's awesome. He also rescued her. She's gonna be right here. Just climb it up my back. So there you go.

Jessica Drucker: Okay, great. Thanks. Cool. Um, okay, so we've been hinting at this a little bit and dancing around the topic, but you are, like easily one of the most well traveled people I know, possibly out there in the world. And I was thinking about it. So I met you in Mexico in 2011. And so I associate you first with Mexico, but then I was thinking what do I really have associate you with and then I was thinking India, but then I was thinking, no, because I really think of you about your experience in Eastern Europe. Because you're also one of the few people that are like really traveling through, they're uncovering it so much on your blog and everything. And so how how many places I associate you with is what makes you so fascinating, because I'm gonna ask you how long you've been on the road, how many countries you've been to? And also, how many places have you really in a deep way lived in? Or do you feel like a true expert? In?

Derek Baron: Mm hmm. Yeah, that's interesting. So I mean, overall, I think I've been to around 130 countries, more or less, I don't count to specifically but I think that's about what it is. been traveling for 20 years now. Pretty much non stop

Jessica Drucker: in five days. Is that what it says on your website?

Derek Baron: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Pretty nuts. As far as deeper places. Interesting, because there's a combination of places where I've actually had a home base, which would be saved Mexico, I still traveled all the time. I've actually was thinking about this the other day, I've never really stayed in one place without moving for more than two months. At least even I had a home base. So I even if I had a home base in Mexico, I would travel and come back. Sure. I never actually stayed put in one town or city or whatever, for more than two months. But I do feel like Mexico, Romania, India, Australia, and also. Now Morocco would be places that I am extremely familiar with in terms of I would say I know them better than the US now. By this point.

Jessica Drucker: Yeah, I mean, 20 years out there. Yeah, yeah, totally. And but that's none of those are places that you actually started this, this whole thing. Where did you kick this off your life of travel?

Derek Baron: Yeah, that was in Southeast Asia. So I've basically flew to Bangkok on Christmas Day 1999. And because the goal was to get to Angkor Wat in Cambodia for the millennium, and that's where I kicked it all off was over there unbelievable experience setup on the wall when Angkor Wat had very few visitors. I don't even think I remember I was there was one other foreigner with me that I traveled with there. But apart from that, it was all local people right there celebrate the millennium. At the main temple, that was incredible.

Jessica Drucker: Oh, wow. Wow, on two levels, because Wow, I didn't know that's how your journey started. And while there weren't a lot of tourists at Angkor Wat,

Derek Baron: crazy like it was a it was unbelievable. Like we would take bicycles, motorbikes, everything go out to even at the main temples that are now full of buses, like nothing, nothing like I have photos of them completely empty is incredible.

Jessica Drucker: And it's I find that crazy that like you and I are old enough now to tell stories like that when I was first traveling, I was now I just feel like everywhere is almost over tourists. And I feel like there's fewer and fewer of those places left to discover in that way.

Derek Baron: I agree. I agree. But that's it's interesting, because I'm thinking that with all this situation right now that the future travel is going to change a little bit and spread out a little bit more so that hoping anyway, but Yeah, I agree with you. I agree that

Jessica Drucker: Yeah. Did you see recently the protesters in Venice along the canals?

Derek Baron: Yeah. Yeah. See, I was just reading that yesterday. Yeah, yeah, I think

Jessica Drucker: you know, I definitely think people are gonna stand up and say that they don't want their own places over touristed.

Derek Baron: Yeah, sure. I mean, it's, yeah, it makes perfect sense. They they don't get the benefit that you would think and also it just they don't they realize that, you know, they want to live in their towns as it was with their own culture and traditions and not have it overrun with obviously souvenir shops and ice cream stalls.

Jessica Drucker: Well, yeah, and they also don't want you know, the from the signs that I was seeing cruise ships. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And you know, not to put you on the spot. But you did write the book on how to work on a cruise. Yeah. Um, and you were on a cruise for how many years?

Derek Baron: So I worked on ships for four years over a period of about eight years. So I would work a contract and then go travel for six months and work another contract things like that.

Jessica Drucker: I like that You are such an intrepid traveler. And you know, you're so far from what like the average traveler is you're in a whole, you know, whole nother universe. But you also have this great experience working on cruises, and you loved it enough to teach people how to do it. I like that you straddled both those worlds right? So what was it like working on the cruises? And what you were in charge of doing tours, right? Like you would go off and kind of arrange all the tours? What What was that like?

Derek Baron: Yeah, so basically, I worked with all the local tour operators that we contracted with in all the ports that we went to around the world and basically organized all the tours. So yeah, it was pretty, pretty interesting. First, I always recognize that I was fortunate enough to get into that position because there is say on that on most of the cruise ships was about 1000 crew members and I was definitely in a good position. I managed to get promoted to a good position where I was one of maybe 20 crew members or 30 crews that even had their own cabin with a window like me, so it it was a very good position from that stamp. point. I mean, I talked about that it was a great way to save money because you have very few expenses. But honestly, I will still stand by the biggest benefit of this, of working on ship is the networking. So that is by far I have friends from other crew members that I met passengers that were on the ship locals in the islands, or the any of the ports of calls that we would visit, that's the true benefit is that I it was a way to network with hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world. And whether it became friendships, even business opportunities, or just people to visit when in my future travels, it that's to me was the was the best benefit. By far, the bonus is that you get to save a lot of money. And yeah, you get to travel around a little bit as well and see some things and you also learned some valuable skills because it is it's not just some, you know, dinky job where you don't have to do anything. And you actually have to think and train, you get properly trained, and you do gain some valuable skills that I have now used in my future business now. So yeah, I think it's a great way to get started and to save some money and to kind of help you meet enough people to give you ideas of what you would want to do for the future.

Jessica Drucker: That's really interesting. Do you think you got to meet more people because I don't know how to say this like nicely, but because they let you off the ship. I mean, you were out in the port a lot more than some of the other cruise ship workers would have been at, I definitely

Derek Baron: met more local people in the in the points by five because first of all, I'm communicating with them the entire time until we arrive on the first one off the ship, I then go meet all of them, they would take me around and show me new places to visit for the guests. Yeah, I got to meet, I got to do all kinds of things that I was definitely fortunate with that. But honestly, even if I didn't get off the ship at all, just the fact that I can meet 1000 crew members that are changing all the time. And every say week or two weeks, another set of 3000 passengers. And to me I was fascinated everybody from Richard Dreyfuss to the prince of Bahrain to some cool people that lived on, you know, a hippie commune in the middle of nowhere, Wisconsin, to all kinds of ambassadors and all just all kinds of fascinating people just from just from being on there, at the same time, recognize the downside, like what people are protesting in Venice, I do see that aspect as well, the main problem is, is that when a cruise ship comes into port, that would be great if they all spent money in the in the port. But a lot of the businesses or a lot of the things that people spend money on, unfortunately, the money goes straight back to the cruise line. So that's that's where the problem is, is that they're not actually benefiting from those 20,000 people per day that are coming. So I definitely see that from that standpoint.

Jessica Drucker: And I also think there's this thing about cruising where, like you, you took it, and you were a sponge, and you were meeting people from all around the world. It's like soaking in this this global thing. But people on cruises oftentimes are so blind to where they actually I mean, I'm guilty of it after being a traveler for as long as I was I went on a cruise and I was like, wait, what Porter? Like I could I don't care. But I think you lose some of that. And people on a cruise. They also don't like take in where they are. They're just kind of like in it on another show that day in a place. They go to the next thing? For sure.

Derek Baron: Yeah, that's part of it. That's the idea. That's how they market it. So that's I mean, that's the idea is to come to a vacation where you can just forget about everything. Yeah, everything's

Jessica Drucker: Yeah, well, I remember when I was actually nomadic, the best thing about the cruise I went on, my parents came and we went on a cruise was that I could hang my clothes in a closet for seven days.

Derek Baron: Now I move and the world moved around me. So I actually have something about there's something to be said about it.

Jessica Drucker: So what do you think? I mean, cruises are obviously a super hot topic at the beginning of the COVID virus here and at least in the US, but what do you think is going to happen? How do you see cruises having to change in the future as a result of this?

Derek Baron: Honestly, I think it'll be by next year, things will be pretty much as they were, I don't see, especially because the main power behind cruises are American clients. And they Americans are just going to want to go back to how things were. And I, as you can see now, like nothing stopping people from already just trying to live how it was. So I don't I see, I think the demand is going to be there. I think what might happen is that the ports of call are gonna write some of the rules now. And maybe the cruise lines won't have so much power to just show up. And Venice will get I think that places like Venice and Dubrovnik, and Barcelona will get their way the people there and they will, you know, there'll be rules, they'll be limited at how many can go into port at once. Probably going to demand that you're going to figure out a way to, you know, filter more money to the actual local economy. So I think from that standpoint, it'll change. But I honestly think probably by next year, ships will be full and people will be out there again.

Doing it, yeah.

Jessica Drucker: Yeah. Because, you know, I'm reading a lot about you know, the buffet bar will disappear and there's some really tactical things. But I mean, if you know Florida and Texas right now, or any indication, yes, people will just be on the cruises, plus the

Derek Baron: Vegas. I know so I don't. And that's now so I don't think by next year, I think it's, I can't see stuff being much different.

Jessica Drucker: I do worry, though, because I think that this is, you know what we're saying with Venice and all these other ports of call and also really just anywhere thinking about New York like, Pete, when people start to come back to New York, which I think might take quite a long time for, you know, domestic or international travel to come back, you have to really keep in mind the needs of the locals as well, because it's not just your economic drivers that are, you know, making us be like, Okay, fine. tourists can come we need it for the economy, because they're bringing with them COVID. I mean, if I were some of these smaller Caribbean countries that depend on cruises, for example, you're also now bringing how many thousands of people fit on a cruise ship? Right.

Derek Baron: I agree.

Jessica Drucker: And I just wonder how, where that power dynamic is going to come? You're right, European ports of call, they'll have power. But I wonder what will happen with Caribbean countries that depend on it so much

Derek Baron: true. I mean, I think also, that's probably why I would guess next year, because ideally, I think as soon as the vaccination is, then it's going to bump just like that within a day. I mean, not not that fast. But I think once that happens, it starts to spread then and people get vaccinated, then I think people will jump right back into it. Yeah, I don't see. It's interesting, because even with my tour business, that's kind of what I see. I have some people that are a little bit bolder, that want to go soon. And some people that are just like, I'm not going anywhere until a vaccine, but once the vaccine comes, I'm going everywhere. So I think, yeah,

Jessica Drucker: yeah. I mean, I'm deaf. I mean, the minute there's a vaccine and booking a trip, I mean, there's no

Derek Baron: yes. But I think you said like about the small Caribbean islands, like I agree. And I think Luckily, I was actually reading yesterday that there's a quite a few organizations or people who people raising money and a lot of them are actually doing okay, because of certain organizations that are trying to raise money to support the locals and and and to support people who otherwise would be affected in those small, small countries. I think that's the interesting thing, too, in a small country is almost a little bit almost a little bit easier. Without the numbers where when you have a bigger, say bigger place, say like Bali with 4.4 million people and 80% of the GDP is tourism. This is difficult.

Yeah, what was what was I reading about?

Was antiva, one of those really small islands in the Caribbean? Well, yeah, just a couple game and organizing, they already raised in like, a week ago, half a million bucks in and spreading it around. It's actually I mean, that's gonna make a huge difference, just like that. But still, yeah, I think it's gonna be a little bit of a wait till next year, and then then things will start to fall back into place. I don't

Jessica Drucker: think anyone realized how vulnerable tourism or depending on tourism really was until a pandemic like this hits. Yeah,

Derek Baron: absolutely. Right. Even here in Bali, they talking about instead of being 80%, they want to lower that to 40%. And they want to focus more on agricultural exports now, because they don't want to be so dependent on on tourism. Yeah. Which

Jessica Drucker: makes perfect sense. So you brought up your tours, wondering URL tours, we haven't talked at all about your blog or your tours. But I would love to give us a little bit of background on your blog, and when you started it, and then I'd love to hear how your tours are doing and how you've considered maybe changing them, or have you just been putting them off until this kind of all dies down?

Derek Baron: Yep, sure. Yeah. So I started blogging in 2008. And just for the fun of it, a friend told me to start a travel blog. So I did. And yeah, it was obviously in those early days. So it was able to pick up some momentum back then. And yeah, create a nice, nice audience, then, that was pretty much my main, my main work for quite a while. And then it was in 2013. When I received some emails from readers that were asking me, can I join you? Next time you go to India, I know you go to India a lot. I know I'd always received those kind of emails every now and then. But it was just a few in a row and it kind of something clicked in my head. I was like, Hmm, maybe I could actually organize a trip to India, and those who want to join me will travel just like I would travel. And we'll have a tour and we'll do some cool stuff. So I put it together literally in about a week. And that was it. I announced it. It's sold out in a day. And next thing I knew I was running a tour to India. So the idea was that it was just going to be that one tour. I figured but then it clicked again. I was like maybe I could do this in Mexico. So I didn't want to Mexico that I was like How about another one to India, and that was in 2014 when I started doing a couple and now this year, if it wasn't for COVID, I would have had 25 tours. And yeah, so now I actually have branched out I do a few tours for my audience. But most of my tours are private groups. Now that I run all kinds of niche tours for women interested in textiles, people, photographers who take photos of abandoned buildings around the world. I run all kinds of stuff for all kinds of different groups using my extensive experience in the countries that I know very well. So that's been pretty cool.

Jessica Drucker: First of all, I didn't know that You do 20 you do that you would have done 25. That's so many. How do people know? So I was looking at one of your tours, and I saw your tours. And first of all, I would love to go on your tours, because I think it's a little bit like traveling with the master. Right? I mean, it's not because your tours are different. They're not your typical tours that that you could book and go on with someone. It's definitely like your style of travel, which is exact everybody. Well, not everybody, of course, people want to want to cruise and not think and that's fine. But I think when you think that you want to really travel and not go on a tour, years are the perfect like traveling tours, like you actually get to do the things that you would do. And they're longer to from what I can see, they're like two weeks, you really get into a place.

Derek Baron: Yeah, yeah, two to three weeks is the idea. And yeah, the idea is pretty much they're not cookie cutter tours, and they're really focused on even a lot of my local friends, we visit a lot of my local friends in places and villages, we might skip a main highlight, instead, go to a village that nobody's ever heard of, because I know somebody and we're gonna have an unbelievable local experience that you can't have anywhere else. So it's kind of that format.

Jessica Drucker: How do people know they can book private tours? Will you literally just like, do like, if someone's like, I want to do this really weird, specific thing? You're like, let's do that. And you figure it out? Or how do people know what they can do with you?

Derek Baron: Yeah, so pretty much what's happened is just through me marketing the tours to my audience, and doing about seven to 10 tours, my audience per year, over the last few years, people who were on those tours started to tell other people or they belong to certain groups or organizations, and they're like, wow, what if you put together a tour for our group, or something like that, but we're really specifically focused on this. So we really like this. And I just yeah, if it's something that I can do, then I'll do it. If it's honestly, if it's something where I'm like, honestly, I don't know how to do it, then I wouldn't do it. Because I don't want to offer it offer tour that I can't, you know, come through, and I really want it to be something that I know how to do. And yeah, so people came on and just like that word spread. And now I'm getting all kinds of requests for all kinds of unique things. And yeah, these textile ones are fascinate. I've run out to one to India, one to Morocco, and I have over five with them lined up next year, to different places as well. And yeah, so it's just, I don't know, somehow now at this point, it's not through the blog, the word is just spread enough through word of mouth that I'm just getting people contacting me saying, Oh, I belong to this organization. And we're a group of 10 people and we want to go to Kyrgyzstan. What can you put together based on this and and then I put it together. So yeah, it's been pretty cool.

Jessica Drucker: Did you do that? Go to Kyrgyzstan with the group?

Derek Baron: Oh, yeah. Run tours. I run almost every year tours to Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan. Oh, my God. Yeah. Next year, I have to a regular one and a textile one to that region. Yeah.

Jessica Drucker: That's amazing. I didn't know that. Wow, that is really cool.

Derek Baron: Thing is on my website. And all the tours aren't listed, because most of the tours are private. So the private ones I don't put on my website, because I'm just dealing with them direct. So the ones you see on the website are ones that I actually offered to my wandering audience. And yeah,

Jessica Drucker: and you mark it those? Are these private tours, like reactive? I mean, are you ever doing like business development on those tours? Are people really just coming to you and asking you for things? And you're like, yeah, I can do that.

Derek Baron: I've sent a few emails out when I've had somebody say, Oh, I know this person who has this organization will be perfect, you should get in touch. And I got in touch. And it's worked out a couple times. But apart from that, yeah. Yeah, I think I spent $5 on Facebook ads.

Jessica Drucker: That's, that's an amazing dream. Right there. That is that is really cool. So what do you think now? Because I think about tours, tours like yours, where you might be off the beaten path where you're not like stomping on the same grounds that everyone is right. So for increased chances of Coronavirus. Obviously, everything's related to that right now. But how do you think these might my biggest concern for these smaller tour companies like yours, although obviously, you seem to be doing swimmingly? Um, because these are the little guys, these are the guys without backing funding investment? What do you think is gonna gonna be the future of smaller tour companies like yours in the next couple of years? I mean, Will people get on buses and take tours will they are from the people that you're talking to? Are they willing to just join groups of people and walk around with them for a week or two?

Derek Baron: From what I'm hearing, it's gonna change like people, of course, there's always going to be that that group that wants to do those busts was just more comfortable and easier and budget wise, that fits in but I think there's going to be a huge growth in smaller tourism in terms of smaller groups, going to smaller destinations, you know, in terms of not as popular, I'm seeing a lot of people who, instead of say, going to Romania for two weeks and traveling around the whole country, I run a lot of trips to Romania. So instead of doing the whole country, they want to be based in one beautiful place in the mountains and take a couple day trips from there and they want more of an immersive experience instead of I think, that concept of seeing at all. It's something that might fade a little bit in favor of a real, more intense genuine experience in maybe one or two places as opposed to trying to cover it all. kind of what I see some scientists slowly adjust on my tours that way to instead of trying to go to say six places in two weeks, maybe we go to three, take some day trips, but it's really going to be fascinating. So we're going to have more activities in those, say three places. And it seems to be where people are headed, at least early by I've talked to

Jessica Drucker: the Washington Post had recently an article about, you know, what will be the future of travel and they were there, they called it private travel. Right. So what they were calling that is RV travel. So really enclosing yourself in the safe pod and going around, at least in the US, I think RV travel will probably be pretty big. What do you think about, like private travel in terms of so I like what you're saying, I hope things go this way, where it's just like people want a more immersive experience. And maybe they want to know, their room is clean. So they stay in the same room and just do these day trips, like you're saying, um, how much of travel is you going out and seeing place? versus actually like talking to locals and being immersed with actual human beings? How do you see travel, like breaking down that way? Because I would love to do more RV travel to I mean, that's a really awesome thing, but you're not going to interact with any locals in a situation like that. So how do you see that relationship? With RV travel?

Derek Baron: Yeah, I mean, I think there's just there's different styles. I mean, I've actually had quite a few people say like, that's what they plan to do in Europe, when things kind of open up. And I think the benefit of that is that you can go anywhere. And that's the benefit, like, which is difficult with a tour, right? So the tour, I'm gonna pick the places that we're gonna go, and it'll happens on every tour. I wish we had an extra day to go to this place, because I heard about this too, you know, something, and obviously, we can, I think that's the beauty of RV travel is that you can and you can go literally anywhere. And I'm hoping that there will be people which I do tend to just want to go to these small little out of the way places it doesn't it doesn't matter, that's what I'm hoping for is that the actual destination the actual site that you see isn't as important is just being in an authentic place. And getting out there meeting people seeing what activities are their beautiful nature and and just not all trying to crowd around the Eiffel Tower for a photo like i think that's that's kind of I think the other thing from what I've heard is that everybody's had a lot, a lot more time to be online, if that's even possible during COVID. And people kind of tie they've seen now literally, they have seen a photo of every major, they've seen millions of photos of every major site in the world to the point where it's, it's just doubled the effect that it has. And it's not so exciting now to go see some of these plays, because they've seen it everywhere, people posting them non stop. So I think from that standpoint, it's like, okay, what's the point to go see a place like Dubrovnik, which I've now seen 4 billion photos of people posing here and there and everything and seen it in Game of Thrones? And let's you know, why not go to a place like Kotor in Montenegro nearby which is gorgeous, medieval little town that much less people go to and something a little bit different in a country Montenegro that few people usually considered so that's what I'm hoping people can now do that and avoid those bass places and in favor of almost anyway,

Jessica Drucker: that's the ideal for me too, is moving people around outside of the you know, heavily touristed areas, when I look at my own past of traveling, and also that's why I love living abroad so much is because when you live abroad, you have time to go to like no name towns and you know, explore places in a much deeper way. I really hope that that is what comes out of travel. But again, what you're saying before it's like, or people are just gonna snap right back to what they did before throw on their socks and Birkenstocks and get out there,

Derek Baron: for sure. And I think the difference is too It's obviously depends who you talk to. I'm generally communicating with people who are coming on my tours are interested in that kind of experience. So that because that's what I focus on. So of course, it makes sense that that's what they're more interested in then. For me, I'm not having communicate with too many people who like Bustos before and that may be considering something different just because I generally don't have the communication channels to that audience since I've been focusing on something a little bit different. So yeah, I think there are going to be people that are gonna snap back into it, a lot of it also has to do again with time ease, because it's much easier to fly to Barcelona than it is to get to a small village in the middle of Spain. That's gorgeous that nobody's ever heard of though. I mean, that's the other thing too, right. And if you have two weeks vacation, yeah, people are gonna fly to Barcelona.

Jessica Drucker: Well, your trips are two to three weeks, which automatically makes me think that you're not only having Americans on your tours because three weeks is a long time for an American what Who are your your What is your main audience or what Who is your clientele?

Derek Baron: So it's about 60%, North American, US and Canada and then the rest is scattered European Australia, New Zealand decent amount from Singapore by things like that. So it's definitely skeptical but 40% is pretty scattered. Yeah. But the The private tours are mostly American. Interesting enough, though those are generally older clientele. That's the other thing too, is I, I do have that section of people say 55 Plus, who account for a lot of the private toys because they generally have the time. A little bit more than the younger crowd.

Jessica Drucker: The money. I mean, it's a little baller to pick a private tour, right?

Derek Baron: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Jessica Drucker: Um, before I lose you, I always am fascinated by this, especially someone like you, but like, how, what is your relationship to your American identity being abroad for 20 years, and not just in one place being abroad in the whole world for 20 years? How do you feel about being American now was your relationship to that?

Derek Baron: Yeah, it's interesting. I'm actually struggling now, because I've actually considered going back to use it as my base for the first time. But I struggled with that concept. Yeah, it's a tough one. Only because I do I still feel I am American, of course. Because I do, I can fly there and instantly feel at ease as soon as I land. And that, to me is kind of weird that I have spent my entire adult life without ever living there. So it's, that's the main reason why I consider it even if it was just for a year. But it's a tough one. Because I would say it's fascinating having traveled this amount as an American just because the come you really see how much of the conversation around the world ends up leading to whatever's going on in the US. So I it's not, you know, like I haven't been able to avoid or escape from anything in terms of topics of conversation, it's almost every day, you have 20 years, no matter where I've been, I can be in the most remote town in Yemen, or in Barcelona. Somehow it comes up just because it has you know that such a far reach everything that happens over there. So that's made me think about it quite often. And I still feel American, I still say I'm from Boston got originally from Boston. Like I said, I feel at ease when I when I do get to the US. But it is also difficult, because I find myself not necessarily defending but people expect me to speak as an American really knows what's going on. But I don't pretend that I know fully what's going on. Because I'm I yes, I go back three times a year, more or less every year to visit family and friends. But I'm not there. I don't feel I don't get the full vibe I don't I try not to follow so much of the news, just because obviously it can make you crazy. So I don't actually know what it's like to be there. But I so I can't actually participate in the conversations as fully as someone who does live there full time. But so it's kind of weird, because I still say I'm American, but I I can't speak as if I can speak honestly about Romanian politics probably more better, you know better than I can about the US at this point. And I know how to get around places Delhi put me in the middle of Delhi and I feel more comfortable. I can tell you all about the history and tell you how, why this happens. And why this markets here and why it is, whatever, more than I could if you put me pretty much anywhere in the US at this point. So it's kind of a weird relationship. But I still say I'm definitely American.

Jessica Drucker: It's just interesting to me. Because Yeah, you you become an ambassador. Right? So you think that you could just totally unplug from being American, but the whole world does still have some interest, you know, and they're gonna ask you about what do you think of Trump? And what do you think of this? You have to have an answer, because you're the one loan representative to them in that moment, and people want to know, so yeah, you're right. Exactly.

Derek Baron: It's exactly. It's fascinating. It's fascinating.

Jessica Drucker: Um, well, so yeah. So what is next for you? What are your next plans? What are you kind of launching next? what's what's going on with wondering are all?

Derek Baron: So focusing on the tours? So I still actually have a few tours planned. I have three groups at the end of this year that do not want to cancel all three to Morocco. So we'll see if that happens. If not, I have a full lineup already full for next year. So we'll see. So that's the plan is to continue doing that I actually don't read all of them myself now. Because obviously, that would be impossible to do 25 tours. So yeah, so that works out. But I'll keep working on the tours. I'm also working on another big project that's focusing on remote workers around the world as the idea of remote working, kind of is growing like people who are actually working for companies and but have a little bit of freedom to work at home or travel a little bit for the year. So I'm working on a pretty big project on that, at the moment. can't give too many details, but that should be released in the next couple months. So yeah, just kind of keep them busy. And like I said, I'll go to the US after this to bring the kitten to a good, good home and then kind of figure it out from there. I'll stay there and use the US as my base returned to Spain or figure out a new plan as always, so we'll see. Awesome,

Jessica Drucker: I want to I'm gonna ask you where people can find you. But just in case you don't say it. I want to put a plug in for your newsletter. You have the best travel newsletter out there. It's awesome. So anyone listening should definitely go to wonder girl.com and find the subscribe box and yeah, it's the best but aside from your email Where, where? And how can people find you and stay in touch with you?

*Transcribed by https://otter.ai AI transcription service. Please excuse any errors