Taking risks with delusional confidence during the Pandemic with Gabby Beckford | Call from Virginia

About GABbY BECKFORD

Gabby Beckford is the 24-year-old entrepreneur, content creator, and travel-addict behind Packs Light. Between her TEDx talk on Delusional Confidence and risk-taking, while young, her 800+, and growing Facebook group called Young Travelers Network, and her being awarded more than $75,000 in study abroad funds in college, Gabby is known as the Opportunity Expert.

Her mission is to empower young people to seek risk, seize opportunities, and see the world. She's been featured in the New York Times, Good Morning America Online, YahooNews!, Lonely Planet, and more.

I love this conversation with Gabby, and I think you will be so inspired as well. From how Covid-19 will affect the future of travel, to how a mastermind of black travel content creators formed the Black Travel Alliance seemingly overnight in response not only to the murder of George Floyd but to hold the travel companies accountable who joined in the digital outcry but need to show up with diversity on their teams and in their marketing. But the most exciting to me is her attitude toward two things: delusional confidence, the idea that if you are going to do something, you might as well assume that it is going to go well or why else do it, and the idea that rather than taking anyone else’s word for it - you should go find out for herself. Gabby is wise beyond her years and an inspiration to all ages. 

episode highlights 

04:01 Gabby quit her 9-5 job to move to Bali just in time for the Pandemic to hit (spoiler: she stayed in Virginia for now instead!)

06:06 How influential her study abroad year in Dubai was to Gabby’s life.

08:31 Gabby talks about her TEDx talk on Delusional Confidence.

09:51 She talks about her love for finding opportunities.

12:19 Gabby shares about her family unit and the impact this made into her confidence.

16:33 The future of Gen Z travel and roadtripping to the South during COVID-19.

22:56 The founding of the Black Travel Alliance.

30:13 Gabby talks about roadtrip safety as a black traveler in today’s America.

33:32 How has her role as an influencer changed trough COVID-19 and BLM movement.

35:00 The future of general travel in a post-pandemic world.

mentioned in this episodE

Gabby’s travel blog, Packs Light.
Gabby’s social media channels:
@packslight on Instagram
@packslight on TikTok
@packslight on Facebook
Young Travelers Network group on Facebook.

The Black Travel Alliance website
@theblacktravelalliance on Instagram
@TheBlackTravelAlliance on Facebook

Gabby’s e-book on Delusional Confidence.
Gabby’s TEDx talk on Delusional Confidence.

About Adventure Calls 

In this podcast, we talk about Gabby's life-changing time spent living abroad in Dubai. If you want to know more about moving abroad, we want to help! 

Check out the book: How To Move Abroad And Why It's The Best Thing You'll Do.

Hire Jessica to be your expat coach.

Follow Jessica on Instagram @jessicavdrucker.

Full episode transcript

*Transcribed by https://otter.ai AI transcription service. Please excuse any errors.

Jessica Drucker: Okay, hi, Gabby. How are you? Hello. I'm doing fantastic, actually. Thank you. Yeah, that's great. And are you doing fantastic. I mean, how is your health and how have you been throughout this whole pandemic?

Gabby Beckford: I am, you know, it's I mean, especially Because I quit my nine to five job in February to travel the world and like that's the exact opposite of what's happened to you. I would think even myself that I wouldn't be so happy but it's all about perspective. I'm actually fantastic which is fun to say.

Jessica Drucker: We started this off with a bang. I did not realize the timing of your life shift.

Gabby Beckford: Really?

Jessica Drucker: Wow. So that didn't go the way you thought it would at first.

Gabby Beckford: Not so much. Yeah, I had all this like three year plan thing and I just kind of you know, crumpled it up into a paper ball and fine.

Jessica Drucker: Okay, well, let's back all the way up then. So basically, you Well, I'm gonna let you talk about why you think you're well known. I have heard of you before for your website, pack slate. But you are a travel blogger, travel influencer travel, everything travel expert. But you obviously just recently gave up your nine to five. Can you talk a little bit about you know what you do and then what made you decide obviously, not knowing that there would be a global pandemic, to finally make the full time leap. In February,

Gabby Beckford: sure, yeah, I, so I studied abroad in Dubai for a year, my junior year of college, I want a big scholarship, and it changed my life. And I like 90% of my personality now. And it really just changed my entire life. So since then, I realized that I didn't really want to be a data scientist like I had thought I wanted to be. offices really aren't my thing. And I really need some sun to feel happy. So since I studied abroad, I just decided that I would work my stem job just so my dad wouldn't secretly hate me and to save up some money. And it would just be a temporary means to an end in which eventually I would be able to just try travel blogging on my own, especially because I'm young. I'm 24 I thought if I was ever going to do it, I would have to do it now. Because like I mentioned, my dad would find me and kill me. So like, yeah, so I it all the all the stars on And February 2020, I'd saved up a bunch of money and holidays plans to move to Bali for six months and then just try this whole thing. So quit my job. And the next week my state was quarantined.

Jessica Drucker: Wow. Yes. I have heard another story just anecdotally of a woman who was much older than you and she sold her house and gave up everything. And then the pandemic happens. So she just ended up renting an Airbnb basically in her hometown. Holy, yeah, I mean, you can't you can't predict that this is going to happen. But I want to have I told you before the call I have so many questions for you. I think what you're doing is so fascinating, but let Can we talk a little bit about your study abroad in Dubai because I am. I also study abroad. I studied abroad in Costa Rica. I think everyone should study abroad or live abroad for at least a year. You say it's 90% of your personality. Can you talk a little bit about like the influence of living in Dubai however, can you also weave in. I believe you have spent a lot of time abroad in your 24 years. Am I right about that?

Gabby Beckford: You are Yeah, I grew up in a military family. My dad was active duty Marines. So I was born in California, moved to Kansas, moved to Virginia, moved to Japan, moved back to Virginia. And then I studied abroad in Dubai. So traveling was never was never really a mental hurdle for my family. They were always kind of okay with, you know, the idea of travel. It wasn't a fear they had to get over but the finances were definitely something I had to figure out. And then traveling as an adult, I travel with my family, my whole life, so to move abroad by myself across the world to not even not even to Canada or England. That was just super close. So that was a lot but it like I said it really did change my life. I went abroad in 2016 and the reason I chose Dubai was at that time, I remember being in college and there just being a big kind of air of mystery around The Middle East and Islam and Arabic language and you know, it was just a big mystery. And for some reason I just felt compelled to go see myself. And not just believe that's the narrative that I was hearing. So I went for myself and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. I absolutely fell in love with the country and the cultures can't even say culture because it really is the melting pot of the world. So many cultures, and it changed. Yeah, it's my neighbors that have my personality, because I feel like maybe I had a 20% view of the possibilities in the world before that, and it exploded to maybe like 90%.

Jessica Drucker: That's amazing. And this is also something that I live by. It's like, go find out for yourself. Don't take other people's word for it. That's the perfect way to live. So absolutely. I think that's amazing. Another thing I read about you recently because you have had quite a lot of like new media buzz around you recently and some publications and things. But I read that you said something wonderful, which is regarding COVID-19. I think you said you have to either learn to surf or drowned. And I thought that is a great quote. Could we talk about that a little bit? So for you personally, as someone in the travel industry and like really kind of kind of just getting started, what does that mean to you learn to surf or drown? How have you been able to do that recently?

Gabby Beckford: Yeah, um, one thing I live by is something called delusional confidence. I gave a TED talk about it. I wrote a book about it, I really live by it because I think if you decide to do something you should do it 100% with in mind that there's, there's no reason that you should fail, you're not more likely to fail than you are to succeed if you put the work in and the time so I just think that if it's going to be a coin flip, you might as well always on positive, so when I say you got to surf or drown, I really mean go at it 100% with your, with your whole heart, believe in yourself believe in the possibilities. And I mean, why not should be the question set of why and what if. So that's what I mean. I mean, if you're not going to go full 100% be 100% 100 miles an hour towards that goal, then you might as well try something else.

Jessica Drucker: Awesome. And the thing you're saying about you know, just bet on the positive. The other thing I think I want people to know about you is this way that you look at opportunity. Um, can you talk a little bit about it? So you said you got a scholarship for Dubai? I think maybe you also got a scholarship for college. Yeah, a little bit out. Talk a little bit about your passion for finding opportunity.

Gabby Beckford: Yes, I love it. I love to talk about this. Because it translates to everything and people always think I just mean travel but it really translate to everything. facet of life. So when I was in high school senior year of high school, I was in a super small town called Stafford, Virginia. And my dad again forced me to apply to a scholarship. So I applied and I happened to win it. And at the award ceremony, I was thanking the organizers, and they said, Oh, yeah, thank you. You know, I wish more people had applied. And I was like, that's a little bit weird to say. And they said, Well, actually, we had 14 scholarships, but only 12 of you applied, I think, and that's why I want it and that moment, changed my life again forever, because I just realized that there are so many opportunities out there in the world, if we are willing to just kind of raise our hand and ask for them to say, who wants to try this? Raise your hand and just say, Sure, me, I don't really know what all this entails. I'm kind of scared but I'll show up. And that's that's how I win my first scholarship that encouraged me to apply to more than 200 over the course of my end of high school, beginning of college career, and I applied, people think, I think You apply for them, win them, and now you're in college, you're done. I applied for them every single year of college. Because if people are giving out free money, why wouldn't I say? Yes. So I applied my junior year for a big national scholarship, and I happen to win it. And it combined with my other scholarships, luckily, and it helped me study abroad. Yeah.

Jessica Drucker: And did it also help you graduate with no or at least a little bit of debt as well?

Gabby Beckford: Yes, absolutely. Yes. It helped pay for I got one big scholarship when I applied to college that paid for half my degree up front. So that also encouraged me. I'm like, if I can just keep applying and cover the rest of that. That'd be fantastic. So I did. And actually, it was cheaper to study abroad for some reason than to actually study at my home University. So yes, I graduated debt free completely. And I was able to study abroad in Dubai, one of the most expensive cities in the world, completely paid for and travel to six new countries while I was out there.

Jessica Drucker: Exactly. And so how do you first of all, where do you get all this confidence? I totally agree with your delusional confidence. I think it's amazing if I had had your confidence when I was 24. I don't even know where I would be today. Where do you Where does it come from? How is it? Is it from this this family unit that you have referenced? Is it? Is it something else? I mean, how do you just come out the womb with this kind of confidence?

Gabby Beckford: It really is. I don't know how to say where it came from. My mom will tell you that the confidence manifested as like an attitude problem. When I was younger, I always had an opinion. And I always, I always wanted to know why if my mom was like, oh, because I said, so that was not the answer for me. Because that doesn't cut it for me. So I really, I do feel like I was lucky enough to be born with it. But I now feel that I can actually coach people into that confidence because it's all I think everyone is actually born like me in society, changes their views on themselves and lowers their confidence a little bit. So I maybe am just the same person. I came out of the As and, and for some reason to have a forcefield, where I'm not affected by the opinions of other people, and kept that belief in myself, but I do think it's possible for anybody else. It's like riding a bike we can get back on it.

Jessica Drucker: No, I agree with you. And I want to know, do you think that part of that is because so I think part of it is that when you take a risk, and you're rewarded with not failing, not living under a bridge for the rest of your life, you see, like, Oh, I can take another risk, and you do and like, slowly over time, you realize you're completely capable of doing much bigger things than you probably thought you could. And I think it can totally be learned. But you talk a lot about risk, right and and seizing opportunity. Yeah. Is that like, what you talk about with your with your audience? And like who, when you're, I mean, I can imagine that you're inspiring so many people with your, you know, all of your channels and stuff, but like, Who are you trying to talk to when when you're reaching your audience? That is such a good question.

Gabby Beckford: That 99% confident, but maybe I'm talking to that 1% of myself that is doubtful and is maybe scared just because of human nature, right? You can't be 100% anything. But I want to be so I choose every day to be 100% even though I am probably only actually 90% 99%. So if I can really convince that 1% of me that isn't fully there yet, then. Yeah, that's who I'm talking to you. And I know that that 1% at least resides in everybody else. So at least I can speak to that.

Jessica Drucker: You think people have like the voice inside them, telling them the things they really want? And then they're just like, everybody else is like, no, that's a crazy idea. Where do you get off thinking? mapic?

Gabby Beckford: Yeah, exactly. Yes. The reaction from other people so often is, you tell them you're dreaming big and they say, Hmm, maybe dream a little smaller. That's maybe more realistic for you don't don't disappoint yourself. Don't I mean, what if you fail, and I would rather just be the voice that shows up on their timeline is like, do it jump right now? Right now? Put down stop thinking go right now.

Jessica Drucker: Yeah, I totally agree. You know what I mean? speaking from personal experience, I failed a bunch of times, big time, actually, all the time. I, you know, I ended up with like very little money and lots of places, I broke a lot of different bones and got injured a lot. I definitely left a few places not feeling great. It doesn't matter, because now I can live my whole life knowing that I did all of these things. And the thing is that people who doubted me before, now they're like, Well, you know, they're talking about all these amazing things that I did, you know? And it's like, you just have to go do those things.

Gabby Beckford: Exactly. And I do always say that, that I would rather not reach my goal, but know that I tried, then not reach my goal, and know that I never tried. So either way, the results gonna be the same because you can't control everything in life. But at least at the end of the day, I can have a few good stories and say that I did everything that I wanted to try

Jessica Drucker: No regrets.

Gabby Beckford: Yeah, absolutely, totally.

Jessica Drucker: So you definitely talk to a younger audience. I mean, I think your tagline is like Gen Z Travel. And I want to ask you, because I definitely don't belong the Gen Z category at all. How are you talking to people? or How are you seeing people talk about travel? But also, you know, I think that Gen Z is kind of the group now that is being seen as a little bit like reckless with the COVID situation, and maybe not taking the kind of precautions they should take. Are you seeing people talking about like, just traveling and going out there and acting normal? And how are you approaching that? And how are you talking about like, COVID-19 and this everything that's happening right now?

Gabby Beckford: Yeah, um, I do have so I have a Facebook group called the Young Travelers Network, and there are 800 Gen Z's in there. So I hope that I have a statistically sound opinion. When I say that I the majority, I just did a poll the other day, I think I just said this for another platform. So I still remember the statistics 50% 57% Excuse me. 57% had said that they Doing road trips in socially distance travel this summer, meaning that they want to get out there, but they are still very cognizant of what's going on and super cautious. The next rung down was 27%, who's absolutely 100% so quarantined, and then after that is the 11% I believe, who said that, you know, YOLO I guess that they're, they're willing to work it also I do believe there's a media element that Okay, we're, if they're if the media has to find a reason for the spike, the uptick, they want to blame somebody. So I feel that Gen Z is kind of a soft target. When in my experience, when I traveled, I did just return from a road trip to Florida. It was not kids at the beach. It was families. It was huge families, actually, older members of families at the beach with no peepee and just in huge groups, so I'm not sure,

Jessica Drucker: right? No, I totally hear that. Can you talk a little bit about what it's like to take a road trip right now?

Gabby Beckford: Yeah. And yeah, so the reason I decided to do a road trip was for my mental health me and my family of three live in an apartment with no backyard and no front yard, we're on the third floor. It just gets to you after three to four months and we quarantine super early. So we've been quarantined. And I was very reasonably sure that we were negative for COVID. So we decided to do a socially distance road trip drove straight down to Savannah stopped in hotel that we had researched beforehand and had COVID-19 precaution policies in place and then drove straight down to a Airbnb where we locked ourselves in. So that's why I felt comfortable traveling. I cannot say that I was prepared at all for what I saw in the south. It is really a different world completely. So yeah, it's like you can socially distance yourself and I think it's possible to travel and have a great time because we did but just knowing how much worse it is done there also brings up a lot more anxiety because who knows, you can't control other people really. So I think I'm being safe. And then we were walking to the street Actually, it was pretty empty. So, okay, so we were in our masks, one guy in the street decides to make a joke at us in state coffee at us like, Oh, yeah, you guys are scared of a cough. And I'm like, there's not even statistically a lot of people around us, but this one guy just has to choose to be like a bad person right now. And, like, you just can't control people. It's very weird.

Jessica Drucker: So I, you know, I always think like, oh, people aren't really going to do the fake cough thing. But I've heard it now a few times. Yeah, it's really scary to me how politicized mask wearing has become?

Gabby Beckford: Absolutely

Jessica Drucker: Can you talk a little bit about the hotel experience like where did you stay in Savannah? And like, how, what what were the factors that made you choose the hotel that you chose?

Gabby Beckford: Yeah, so we stopped in Savannah because it was a perfect halfway mark between DC and Florida. And then At that point, it was just about finding a hotel. So I did my research online and I actually worked with the Tourism Board down there to choose the Alita hotels fantastic. On their website, clearly it says that we have COVID precautions in place. When we walked in all the staff was wearing masks, even though some of the guests weren't. When you walk to the elevators, there's a sign that says one family per elevator, we are respecting social distancing policies, things like that. So just those, those pop ups of we're acknowledging this and we're taking it seriously really just help you feel better.

Jessica Drucker: And are you like skeevy about touching the TV remote or like touching anything? Or are you at some point you just kind of like throw caution to the wind and be like, we're doing this?

Gabby Beckford: I did check beforehand, the TV remote already had a bag on it. I think they replaced the bag over that sort of thing. So it kind of helps me feel better in general that, you know, they're taking it seriously. Hopefully, they wipe down everything that they said. And you know, I was like, yeah, at some point, you kind of do have to throw caution to well because even before this Pre pandemic. Everyone thinks hotels are clean. And then you see the TV shows where they put a black light. Like, I mean, they can tell you anything. Yeah, but yeah, I don't think I had more of a chance than someone who went to work every day. Getting it, right, sitting in a hotel. So.

Jessica Drucker: right you're, you're in suffering like an essential worker, you're basically staying one night at a hotel. Right? Exactly. I know. I know. Okay, so it's just really interesting to me, because, like, you know, everyone has their personal level of comfort. And I know that people are out there on vacation, staying in hotels, I think being from New York in Epicenter at the beginning, you know, we're just really conditioned to not mess with that, I think. Yeah, right now, but I thank you for sharing your story. Because I think that's, it's so weird. What becomes an adventure right now. Yeah, you know, just like go into a store. Yeah, I know. Like, tell me about your hotel. You know, it's like that's, that's the adventure now. Okay, so I wanted to talk to you also. So, when I started this podcast this year, it was really to document COVID-19 In my fears around travel, kind of coming to an end, at least temporarily. And I thought, you know, one global pandemic, that would be the theme of adventure calls. And then there is this whole other element now, a much bigger and more important movement. I mean, obviously, the Black Lives movement is in full effect right now. And so I want us to talk to you also because you are a founding member of the black travel Alliance, which kind of just recently came together. But I would love to hear your thoughts about because what I've been reading, you know about things that you've said, have been so thoughtful and smart about the intersection of travel and not just the Black Lives Matter movement, but essentially like what it's like to be a black traveler. Can you talk a little bit about, first of all, just the black travel Alliance, how the idea came to be and what you're hoping to accomplish with this organization?

Gabby Beckford: Yeah, so the Black Travel Alliance came about From a weekly mastermind I'm in. It's around 30 black creators. Every Sunday we meet up we chat, we talk about how we can better ourselves. And next week, it's really, really casual. But that meeting that week, that first week where George Floyd was murdered, was different. And the meeting clicks on on zoom. And the first thing someone says is, what are we going to do? And what we mean by that is in our space, how can we pull up how can we have a travel lives black travel lives matter? How can we make a change in our own community basically. So instantly, everyone said, What are you good at and how can you contribute and everyone spoke up, I can build a website I can. I have PR connections. I have media experience, and we all pitched in however we could. We got the black travel Alliance up and together, I think, very literally in 48 hours. It was from dusk to fincastle so quickly, and yeah, our goal is to just do what we can in our So for right now, the main goal of the black travel Alliance is to establish equal opportunity and representation for black travel creators, through you know, support initiatives, our pillars of our community, our alliance amplification and accountability. And that's what we're striving for Alliance community, knowing that we're all together. If new creators want to get into this space, we want to help them, we want to make sure that they know that they're not alone and floundering and trying to get into the space amplification of our own voices and accountability. The black the, excuse me, the travel industry in general has had a stark lack of diversity for decades. I mean, for for a long time, and people in this space have been doing this work for a long time and not being heard. So now there's a platform like you said, Now there's an opportunity to speak and we're taking advantage of it. So representation.

Jessica Drucker: Yeah, definitely. And what does it mean for you know, someone in your audience to like, what's the difference even you when you're researching like Just talk a little bit about why this matters. Like when you're researching, and you come across a travel blog, and it's like a famous travel blogger, and you're going somewhere they've been and you're reading their tips and like, great. So you you're making notes and making your plan, but they're white and then you find it a black traveler who's done the same thing maybe has a different perspective, do you? I mean, do you immediately feel like 100% more trust like you trust this the black traveler more because they have the same experience that you have?

Gabby Beckford: I wouldn't say that exactly. Because blackness is such a spectrum that I can't think that just because one black person had a good experience in Croatia, that that I'll have the same experience or that she didn't experience racism that I won't. But I do think that a black narrative of a travel story takes just sees more and that's exactly what white privilege is, is that you don't see the things that we see. So maybe you had a great trip and a black person goes on has that same exact trip but she sees More she sees the microaggression cc's, the way people stare at her in the street, she sees the way that they asked for her money up front when she went to the restaurant instead of after her meal like everybody else. Those are the things that I care about. And I need to know how comfortable my trip will be. And I just don't think a white creator would just see those things, not that they are a bad person, but I just want to see what I have to see.

Jessica Drucker: Yeah, no, I mean, I completely understand I, I obviously do not share the same experience that you have. And I want to dig in a little bit more. So people understand what that what those things are those microaggressions that you're talking about. I only ask because I personally know. So you know, I'm gay. And so I look at travel blogs, and I see people going to certain countries, cities, places, and I think like Well, that's nice for them, but like I would not feel comfortable with my family, for example. So it's a totally different like type of marginalization but and I'm not trying to generalize at all, but I just I do want people to know what are those kind of microaggressions you know, people don't even realize that that maybe black travelers do have to fight up against when they travel

Gabby Beckford: Yeah, most of them are things that a black person would experience at home every day just life things like I said, Yeah, you walk in and try to get the key to your Airbnb maybe and the neighbor is super suspicious and they question you more than they would question somebody else. I'm staying here and I How can I prove that suddenly you're like really tense and making them tense and all that type of stuff. Always issues at TSA going through security at airports, that's always an issue for me. I big curly hair. They always want to dig through it. They don't want to wear their gloves. They don't want to change their gloves. Just in that in that Okay, fine. You have to dig your hands here my hair sure but can you change your gloves? Suddenly, I'm being confrontational. Okay, I'm gonna pull you over to this side. It just things that you know, maybe would be annoying to someone who's not black, a non black person of color or even a white person just seem to escalate so much quickly, so much more quickly for black people, even though it may just have been an accidental confrontation. Travel I mean, it just sad that it's just such a normal life things if I want to fly and I sit in first class this has happened. Because I'm a expert traveler, not because I'm rich. But I know how to. I know.

Jessica Drucker: how to get deals, we've established that.

Gabby Beckford: Yeah, exactly. Use my points and stuff. I'll sit in first class, I'm always questions. It's never a question of if I'm going to be questioned. It's when when I mean, should I attribute that to my other ways that I'm marginalized? Is it? Are they picking on me? Because I'm a woman? Are they picking on me cuz I look young? Are they? Are they picking on me? Like, who's to say if it's because I'm black or not? But they're, I do think that there's an element in that and it's just small things like that. Can I just sit down? And think I paid for? No, really?

Jessica Drucker: Yeah, I mean, these are things that people don't see. And I think now what's so not that we only have to focus on those things right now. But now I think you have a captive audience of people who are like, oh, that maybe there's a lot of things that I wasn't realizing before about my daily life. I was reading Reading a headline, you know, I've been talking non stop in my day job and on this podcast about how 2020 is the year the road trip. And New York Times has this headline that's like 2020 is the year of the road trip unless you're black. And I was just like, Oh, yeah, that's something that I have never considered before.

Gabby Beckford: Yeah, yep. I was actually just on Tick tock, of course, that so Gen Z of me, where someone did a tick tock, an informational Tick tock, a white guy did. He says, Hey, I'm from Harrison, Arkansas, if you're road tripping this summer, please don't come here. If you're black, they have signs everywhere that say that there's the KKK here. People go missing all the time. Here's a list of other sundown towns that you shouldn't like make sure that they're not on your itinerary if your road trip in the summer, and yeah, we have to do that research, whereas I don't think other people do.

Jessica Drucker: Oh my god, are you serious?

Gabby Beckford: Yeah, I'm very serious.

Jessica Drucker: And so yeah, I mean, do you share things Like that. I mean, that's, like so hard to deal with. How do you say to people like, Hey, I just caught this you spread those things, or do you just kind of think like, I guess? People know that. I mean, how do you how do you talk about safety like that?

Gabby Beckford: Yeah. And that's a, that's a great question. Especially because my brand is all about positivity. Right? Yeah. Delusionally confident. Yeah, there's just situations where that doesn't fly, like Harrison, Arkansas. So I haven't shared that on my platform yet. But I will. And I don't want to actually I would rather not just like, I'm sure it's uncomfortable conversations with everybody. I would prefer not to have that conversation. But I, I have the privilege as a lighter skinned black woman who's a traveler, and who is delusionally confident like I am lucky to be as strong as I am. So I do need to use my platform to share this information where other people might not feel as welcome. I I can't imagine if I were darker skinned or had a smaller following. And I shared that and some do jumped in my DMS to harass me. So, you know, I have to use my privilege to share that, but it's really uncomfortable and it is sad that I get that response a lot like, Oh my god, I can't even imagine that you're still dealing with this in 2020. It is. And I need that to be understood by everybody that yeah, this is still happening really in 2020.

Jessica Drucker: Now, yeah, so Okay, so I have a couple of questions about that. But first of all, what do you find that traveling in the US is actually like more a place where there's more microaggressions than if you go abroad?

Gabby Beckford: Yes, and I say that sort of shakily, because of course, we have a huge country. So it's hard to compare. I know the entire 50 states to you know, Dubai, which is a small city, but I just told my friend today, I just posted on my Instagram story. This white guy just did a solo road trip. He asked his friends if they would go and they said they had work. So he's like, I'll just go back Myself, and he had a great time and a cool video and stuff. And I posted it and said, I wish that I could do this. But black women go missing at like six times higher rate than white men do. And my friend who's my black male friend, he's in the black travel lines with me, Jeff, from chubby diaries. He said, girl, you can't let that stop you go. And I have to say, I'm actually more scared to travel in the US than I am to travel abroad. 100%

Jessica Drucker: Really?

Gabby Beckford: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, I mean, and I always say that to just generally speaking, like, if you were going to go to a country that had where everybody wore a gun, and in some states, you could wear the gun outside of your clothing. I mean, yeah, that's the United States. Like that doesn't happen in other places. Exactly. Just generally, it does feel dangerous, especially if you've lived abroad and come back. You're just like, wow, that's, that's crazy. Those are normal.

Jessica Drucker: Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. Um, yeah. And then the other. The other thing I really want to ask you guys like how has your role cuz you know, you're an influencer if we want to use that term, which I don't really like, but you are definitely an influencer, you have a ton of influence. How have you seen your role as an influencer change through first COVID and like the global pandemic, and now this movement? Has your have the things that you've talked about change? I mean, I know you're delusionally confident and super positive. But you're not delusional. You know, I mean, you're in, you're in all of this stuff. Yeah. How have you seen your content change? And like, how has it felt to you to sort of change any messaging?

Gabby Beckford: Yeah, I, like I said, I feel a responsibility to be transparent and acknowledge what's going on. I was not one of the people who was like, Oh, COVID spine, let's anyway, I was the person as soon as it hit the US. I was like, Hey, I was about to go on a road trip today. But now I'm not are you guys watching this? So my messaging changed. Absolutely. 100% I don't think there's been a post or maybe I won't say that. Maybe I'd say there's, I can count on one hand how many posts I've had that are not COVID-19 or Black Lives Matter related because normal life isn't normal anymore. Our normal is gone. And this is our normal now at least for now. Until you know something happens. I don't know how it'll be in a year what our new normal will be. But this is our reality now and what we knew before is gone. So it doesn't make sense for me to ignore it or posts that I'm going to fly to Hawaii and have so much fun without there's an Astrakhan everything I post now basically, whether it's COVID-19, or black lives matter, there's always an Asterix.

Jessica Drucker: Wow. That's a good way to put it, though. Absolutely. And what do you think because, you know, none of us can know there's no answers. Nobody really knows anything. But looking at this from two perspectives, what do you let's go first with COVID and how that's going to affect travel, just from sort of what you're picking up and like in your universe? How do you think that the pandemic is going to permanently change? travel? What is the future of travel after this?

Gabby Beckford: You know, one good thing is that travel will be a lot cleaner. I have seen the policies that the airlines have put in place like, Hey, we're wiping down the plane while you're on the plane in between your flights. And I'm kind of like, what were you? What were you doing before? Oh, God. So it's gonna be a little bit, but I definitely think it will be cleaner. It may be a lot more expensive. I've seen that that airlines have taken a huge hit the travel industry has taken a huge, huge, huge hit the hospitality industry, hotels, they still are being respectful of their state's mandates. So I mean, it depends on the state, obviously. But they're happy to be at 50 50% capacity right now. And it's difficult for me being in this industry to say that you shouldn't travel or that you should travel because it is dangerous to travel. But also these people have lives too. I need to put money on the table, but it's your life and it's really complicated. So I think it like he said it's a big question mark, but travel will be a lot more domestic Everyone's going outdoors, which I do actually like. And I'm actually hoping that everyone going outdoors will heighten our appreciation for the earth and conservation. And maybe we'll have huge changes in like sustainability and sustainable travel train. Oh my God, if we could get a high speed rail train in this country, my life would be 100 times better.

Jessica Drucker: I know I really that would be the absolute best thing to come out of this. I totally agree with you. Yes. If you've ever taken an Amtrak any reasonable distance, you can't believe that that's what we have in this country.

Gabby Beckford: Yeah. Oh my god for like 400 bucks. And I'm like, it should be cheaper and easier and faster and yeah.

Jessica Drucker: 400 bucks in three days to get to Colorado or something, you know?

Gabby Beckford: Exactly.

Jessica Drucker: Wait a minute. Okay, definitely interesting. It's interesting that you say it'll be more expensive. You think it might be more expensive because right now obviously everything is like rock bottom prices, basically, throwing things at you for free, but you're right, the money will have to be made up somewhere.

Gabby Beckford: I think they're gonna catch us when we think, okay, now, you can't have both. It's like the choose three thing, or you have three options and you choose to. So safe and expensive or unsafe and dirt cheap. Those are our options.

Jessica Drucker: Interesting. Yeah, that's a great way to put it. And then the last thing I really want to touch on is how do you think the the like intersection of the Black Lives Matter movement and travel will change the future of travel, maybe for black travelers, for travelers of color, or just generally the industry because it really is now something that I mean, I just got this thing from Delta, about what they're doing about COVID mainly, but then there was an entire paragraph in there about their stance on equality and diversity. And that never would have happened without, you know, over a month of sustained protests, right? And yet, things are changing. But how do you you know, what's what how do you view the future of travel and how that may or may not change for by travelers.

Gabby Beckford: I see black travel allies, people of color, putting their money where their mouth is. So if companies haven't spoke up, if they've spoken up vaguely if they've promised change, but we don't see change, I think they're gonna see that change in their pockets. So I see that as a huge change for the black travelers and where we travel to and the destinations we travel to do they support black lives in their destination marketing? Do I see myself represented if I go to their Instagram page? These are things that people will continue to be looking out for. You know, and I definitely see on a lifestyle basis. I guess when I travel, I like to go to restaurants. To these restaurants for Black Lives Matter. Are they black owned, I definitely seek out black owned restaurants when I travel. So yeah, I definitely I foresee a more intentional travel in the future in terms of where we spend our money, in terms of how we spend it. In terms of the places we go to how we get there. It's all going Be a loaded decision, which, you know, maybe it should be,

Jessica Drucker: but and how, okay, how do you and sorry, because now you're going to do the thing where you have to do the emotional labor for me, but like, how as a white lie do, do I but also how do we sustain? Because travel is a place where you can be super involved now. And then you could easily not include that in your own travel plans because there's a dirt cheap cruise or a family vacation. How How do you see that? In terms of, you know, staying aware? how did how does this movement continue? When travel opens up, and people are just kind of like, let's go and they're so excited about traveling?
Gabby Beckford: Yeah, I hope that the black travel Alliance is that accountability that we need? Right? Because you're right. I mean, the American attention span is nine days and even that's super impressive. like super impressive because there's always something new happening. So then you talk about But I'm hoping the black travel alliance in organizations like this that have committed to doing the work and holding people accountable are because the black travel Alliance is formed by black influencers and creators who work with other brands who work with the community like we are, I guess the the activists in this situation so I, I'm gonna say bringing it back to the positive that I'm hopefully optimistic that this is different. This isn't. This isn't like every other thing that's happened to us. I mean, it's like compounded The COVID-19 has really hit the American economy. Black Lives Matter has really hit the American psyche. I think that this is going to be a permanent change, and I hope it does.